Wrong Way Forward
Well, bless your heart and clutch your pearls— She’s Katy Montgomery: Georgetown-educated lawyer, sought-after executive coach, and Southern-bred straight-shooter. He’s Justin Joseph: one time prosecutor, former Emmy-award winning investigative reporter, and her wildly opinionated counterpart.
These best friends are serving subpoenas to bad advice weekly with Wrong Way Forward - the advice column reboot you never knew you needed. Sparks fly. And, so does the hilarity. Join them as they turn questionable wisdom into a masterclass of smart irreverence.
Launching September 18th, we’re coming for the worst advice from the week’s hottest topics. Think of it as a public service: we suffer through the nonsense so you don’t have to. Sign up now - streaming on your favorite podcast site.
Wrong Way Forward
41. How Ugly Is Too Ugly?
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What actually makes someone attractive? Is it their face, their body, their bank account... or something much deeper?
This week on Wrong Way Forward, Katy and Justin tackle one of the most uncomfortable—and hilarious—topics we've ever discussed: ugly.
From the college game of "Face or Body?" to pretty privilege, GLP-1s, plastic surgery, dating standards, aging, and whether personality can actually make someone more attractive, nothing is off limits.
Along the way, we debate:
- Is it ever okay to judge someone by their looks?
- Does money make people more attractive?
- Why do beauty standards keep changing?
- Should parents care if their child dates someone they don't find attractive?
- Is "ugly" the meanest word in the English language?
As always, we take a piece of questionable advice, roast it, challenge each other, and try to figure out the right way forward.
👇 Tell us in the comments:
Can personality make someone more attractive—or are first impressions impossible to overcome?
🎙️ New episodes every Thursday.
#WrongWayForward #Dating #Relationships #BeautyStandards #PrettyPrivilege #Personality #DatingAdvice #ComedyPodcast #GLP1 #SelfImage #ModernDating #Podcast
Cold Open And UGLY Chant
SpeakerShe's Katy Montgomery. He's Justin Joseph. These best friends are serving subpoenas to bad advice weekly with wrong way forward. Now, here's Katy and Justin.
Speaker 8You love it.
Speaker 2Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. You may or may not know that. So where does that come from?
Speaker 6That's from the movie Wildcats, starring um Goldie Home, when she was the um the football coach.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 6And um, and those were the cheerleaders singing the famous UGLY, you ain't got no alibi. You ugly. Yeah, yeah, you ugly.
Speaker 3When we were brainstorming topics for this year's season, how did this even come up?
Speaker 6We were sitting around talking, and I think I started talking about in college all the guys you hung out with in your paternity played face and body. Well, Justin said, Can we play that tonight? Do you know what face body is?
Speaker 3I think all probably people play face and body. Face or is it face or body?
Speaker 6Yeah, you have to say which you prefer.
Speaker 3Which I think the modern day version is um fuck Mary Kill. Is that fair?
Speaker 6No, I don't I think they're two different things.
Speaker 3They are.
Speaker 6I always thought face or body is like, do they have a better body or do they have a better face?
Speaker 3Okay.
Speaker 6And fuck kill Mary is you got three names and you gotta fuck one, kill one, and marry one.
Speaker 3Okay, well, I hate. I think everybody's played face or body at one time.
Speaker 6Do you I mean, I'm assuming, but also we're assholes, so I don't know.
Speaker 3So we were talking, I think it was a combination of that, and then we had done so much on looks maxing, looks maxing last season, yes, that it became a big thing of what is ugly.
Speaker 6Yeah, and I am
Face Or Body And Why Ugly Hurts
Speaker 6gonna and I told you this the other night. I said, I really think about the two meanest things you can say about someone is number one that they're stupid, and number two, that they're ugly. I just think both of those things are really nasty. Nasty, nasty, but we started talking about the whole kind of concept of ugly, is that I think guys can car compartmentalize it more. They can be like you're attractive or you're not, and I like you or not. Whereas like girls cannot separate looks and personality, and guys can. And I for me, I'm like, you can start to look ugly if you're boring or stupid or not funny, or mean or me. Where guys I think can be like completely separate.
Speaker 3Yeah, but what's interesting about you is you've never been a big one on looks. Like you would you've been always money.
Speaker 6Well, that is not correct. I think my problem has been this. I think I am personally attracted very much so to seven to chance. I think people below a seven are attracted to me, which I don't know what that means, but maybe I'm ugly. So I don't know what that actually means. And so I think that I have settled to myself that I could never be with a seven plus.
Speaker 3Okay. Well, um, we are not the first person to tackle this issue. And so today we're talking about what is the right way forward when dealing with looks on your significant other, or like out of the universe, or what?
Speaker 6Well, I mean, because I mean, in previous episodes, I mean, you know, you've said before someone gets fat and you're like, you're fat, I don't want to be married to you, I'm not attracted to you anymore. Get away.
Speaker 3I think that's actually correct.
Speaker 6I think that's a fantastic summary. Whereas I was like, by the time you're married, you have a life together, there's comfort, you have a history of these things, which I think that goes back to men and women, that they can just compartmentalize, you're either attracted or you're not. Whereas women see it on a spectrum, and the word attractive adds a lot of different qualities.
Speaker 3Okay. Well, um, we asked our good friend Nikki, Nikki Glazer just on this topic. Here was her take on um not necessarily looks mac and accessing, but what is ugly.
Speaker 8Yes.
Nikki Glaser On Being Ugly
Speaker 1Thank you for being here. Being ugly, that sucks, too. We don't talk about that, right? We don't talk about ugly people because no one's ugly. Come on. Like, uh there's so many people, they're ugly. It's not a bad thing to say. People go, that's so mean. I'm like, is it? It just means their face isn't symmetrical. Like, it's I'm not saying they're a bad person. It's not their fault. I mean, it's their parents' fault for being cousins or something, but it's not their fault. I'm saying I have sympathy for ugly people. I see you, and I don't want to, but I see you.
Speaker 3I think that's our maximum allow seven seconds before we get sued by Mickey Glazer.
Speaker 6Probably, probably. But do you think that that is do you think that there are ugly people? And do you think you're looking at me like I'm an idiot.
Speaker 3Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I hate to say it, but of course people there are people who are so much. We just had lunch before this. There was an our bartender was perfect symmetry, right?
Speaker 6But but I thought he was a German assassin.
Speaker 3But perfect symmetry.
Speaker 6Yes, but like paid to kill people. He freaked me out.
Speaker 3Yeah, but he looked he was he looked like a model, but he had zero personality. Yes. And so I don't want to use the word he was ugly because he had no personality, but it detracted from his perfect symmetry.
Speaker 6Yes. But I mean, I guess what we kind of talk about kind of the wrong way forward is do you think it is the wrong way forward when people make a decision purely on looks? And how much do you think that our current culture makes decisions purely on looks?
Speaker 3Well, I think our current culture definitely makes decisions on looks. Um having said that, um, I think you you uh only hurt yourself if that's how you're gonna perceive your life. But it's hard not to perceive your life that way.
Speaker 6Yeah, but I mean, let's talk about this. Who is highly successful who is ugly?
Speaker 3This is not my preference. Highly successful who is ugly.
Speaker 6I guess that goes back to what is the definition of ugly. That's why I rarely, really use it. Because you've got to be pretty heinous.
Speaker 3It's a mean term. But who do you think? Do you think someone is highly successful is unattractive?
Symmetry Money And Beauty Standards
Speaker 6Marcia Herbert. I always this is terrible crossing myself. I always thought Ted Cobble was highly unattractive.
Speaker 3Uh well, yes. Um Marcia Herbert.
Speaker 6If he didn't have it, it took care of the Granite Ancestor.
Speaker 3Granted Ancestor.
Speaker 6No, but remember she got that facelift? She looked fantastic.
Speaker 3She looked better.
Speaker 6But she was not ugly when she got the facelift. I don't even think she was ugly before.
Speaker 3Because we talked about how you can have you cannot be an attractive person and money can be divided out with those looks.
Speaker 6Yeah, but I don't think Selene Dion, even when she had T Rex T, was ugly. She had good skin, she had healthy hair. You know.
Speaker 3But I think the point is money can make you a lot prettier.
Speaker 6Well, and and and one of the things that I've read is that if you actually follow the trends of what people universally think beauty is, it's where the money is. Right? So pale skin years ago was considered incredibly beautiful because you didn't have to work in the field. Um if you were chubby, it was considered beautiful because you had access to food. And you know, now it's a very kind of tough body because you have access to GLPs and a trainer. And so if you look at the standard of beauty, it attracts where money sits. Do I think what's taken into society? Well, I but I think here's the thing, right? Like I look at it all the time, and it's not like we're winning any beauty contest here before. But there are lots of unattractive people who are married and happily happy and satisfied, and there's lots of unattractive people who are with attractive people.
Speaker 3Yeah, I'm very simple examples of that all the time. I do think that the people with money tend to probably get above the stratus period.
Speaker 6Well, we talked about this too. It's like, what is attractive me? Like, does it mean like Nicky Glazer's talking about? Is it a symmetrical face? Or is attractive the fact that you have power, fame, money, impact, exposure, you know, values. I think I don't think Jeff Bezos is heinous, but I wouldn't stop on the street and take a second look. But I think there are quite a few people who would say he is attractive because he has money. He has money, which I I can very well celebrate those two.
Speaker 3What does that mean?
Speaker 6And just because someone's wealthy doesn't mean that I find them attractive.
Speaker 3Yeah. No, but do you find them a little bit more attractive?
Speaker 6No. But I but we know this, I'm not a Bezos fan.
Speaker 3Okay, but let's say you were out on the town and you met a man and he was he was barely hit that seven, and you say you're bottom. You want to go lower than a seven.
Speaker 6No, I go lower than a seven.
Speaker 3You would go lower.
Speaker 6I'd like to go above, but those above do not like me. This is the crux of my life.
Speaker 3What's the load you gave?
Speaker 6Well, are we talking about purely looks? Are we talking about I'm a girl who looks at the whole package?
Speaker 3This is what purely looks first.
Speaker 6This would be interesting. I'd love to like call my best friends. Your friends. Yeah, I'd love to call my friends and say, tell me the truth. A four? A four? Okay. What do you think is the lowest you date? Purely looks, not personality and intelligence.
Speaker 3A nine? I'm trying to think um if I dated anybody I well, you know, I know Josh for so darn long that it's hard to remember that before, and before I had a full head of hair I had worked out at the time. So I did could retire to the forest. But did I ever date anybody that was ugly? No, I date a lot of the gay. Just gay face. I dated a few that had gay face, which I think is untracked. I shouldn't say that.
Speaker 6What he just did. But here's the thing: uh, if we're talking about ugly, U G L Y U A got no L I.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 6On a scale of one to ten, according to a gay male, what is considered U G L Y ugly?
Speaker 3Ah I think the looks are so different because it's such a it's it's so out there. I mean, everything's about the looks, which is a sad thing.
Speaker 6Yeah, but I mean again's the question.
Speaker 3Like number wise, yeah.
Speaker 6What what what would what would universally end be like, yes, that is ugly? I wouldn't hide in a gay community.
Speaker 3I just don't think men look at women like that, though. It's more like, are you fun? Are you cute?
Speaker 6No, men totally look at that.
Speaker 3In the gay community, men don't look at women.
Speaker 6Oh, oh, correct, correct.
Speaker 3You're just looking for you fun to go out with, you do my wingbands, so you can get a lot of things.
Speaker 6Gay guys love tits.
Speaker 3Um that is true. Some do why is that?
Speaker 6I told you about my brother's wedding. One of his good gay friends came up to me and he said, Can I motorboat you? And my response was no, but you can ask my sister.
Speaker 3Did she let him?
Speaker 6No.
Speaker 3I don't know. I've never had fascination with uh with him because men gang are all about rock hard stuff. Okay, I and boobs are not rock or hard.
Speaker 6Well, unless you've got like a really hard implant, maybe I don't know where I'm touching tits.
Speaker 3Alright, well, when we come back, we're gonna take up the other side of this debate. But for now, as they say.
Speaker 8You have it! You it! Your mama said you!
Speaker 5You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward, where bad advice goes to die and then gets resurrected just so we can roast it again.
Speaker 4If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and subscribe and come back every Thursday for new episodes.
Speaker 5Have a new topic or some disastrously bad advice you want to dissect? Email wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Include your contact info.
SpeakerNow back to Wrong Way Forward. Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin podcast.
Speaker 8You ugly! You cheat out you make up, you ugly! You ugly!
The Lawsuit Story And Aesthetic Hacks
Speaker 3All right, welcome back to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward, where we are talking about the worst four letter, the worst four-letter word that can stop you in your tracks. Ugly. It's an ugly word.
Speaker 6I mean, I think if you told somebody at any stage in their life they were ugly, I think that's a traumatic experience.
Speaker 3100%.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 3Um, not a nice word. So, what what I'm trying to figure out what is our viewer takeaway from today's discussion? How do what's the right way forward?
Speaker 6And well, I think, I mean, first of all, if you want to be practical, in this day and age, you can manipulate your aesthetics. Yeah. Like I heard this rumor of this Chinese man who married his wife and they had ugly children.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 6And he decided to sue her because his children were so ugly. Because what he found out is that she wasn't completely honest and he saw her, and let's just say she was a 10, but she had manipulated it.
Speaker 3So she may have been a sex who operated her way to a time.
Speaker 6Right. And to be completely honest, you don't even have to operate, right? Now you can take a GLP, you can get a laser, you can use makeup, you can color your hair. So I think the first thing is if you're a total asshole, is of course remember that aesthetics aren't real, right? And aesthetics can fade. But I think the wrong way forward is first of all, calling anyone ugly. But I think number two is purely moving forward with someone's looks.
Speaker 3Sure, sure. I mean, the sad fact is that that is the first thing you see. That's the first way you become attracted to someone. I mean, let's talk about the time we were watching World Cup Soccer in the bar the other night for World Cup Soccer. I'm like, let's see what kind of man you're attracted to. And I've got a lovely human in a touch shirt on G as well. And that just didn't interest you at all. You like the guy.
Speaker 6I mean, it did. But here's the thing, too. I'm also 52. I'm very realistic. I'm there to spend time with my friends, and I'm not going to go bust my butt for somebody in the town I don't live in.
Speaker 3But you had but you told me about your dream. Just well, you said, well, you might have been in a dream and you met someone here. Right?
Speaker 6It wasn't a dream. It was a daydream. And my y'all, I just fuck it, I don't care anymore. I had two drinks at lunch. The filter's gone. I had a daydream that Justin and I went to see the World Cup game, and I run into a really cute guy who's age appropriate, who lives in Denver, and we meet, and we meet over a World Cup game, and then we proceed to date long distance.
Speaker 3But yeah, you gotta have hope in your life. No, 100%. And the sad thing is that could happen in a minute.
Speaker 6Well, I don't know.
Speaker 3It could, it happens all the time all around the world.
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean, it could, but the likelihood is slim.
Speaker 3Yeah. Um, so anyway, um, so okay, so this this guy sues his ex-wife because she faked her looks.
Speaker 6Well, because he said, I I married you, which again, wrong way forward, is to marry someone purely for their looks and what looks can produce. And I don't know if you've ever had this phenomenon. The most beautiful people sometimes have the most heinous children. I mean, there's there's not always a correlation.
Speaker 3I actually don't, I don't know that I can speak to that.
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean, but I mean it just makes sense. You can't you have no idea what's happening, happening in the genetics. When you're stirring it up, there is no guarantee that if you're beautiful and your partner's beautiful, that you will have a beautiful job. There's always a risk involved. But he has these kids and he's like, whoa shit, that's what came out. And then I I mean, this is again, I have not fact-checked this. I don't know if this is actually you know a real story, but then finds out that he he said her, like I was sold a false bill of goods. I thought this is how you looked. I thought that I had won the genetic lottery, and I did not.
Speaker 3Interesting. Um and let me ask you, do you think looks have gone too far? Like, do you think people's society values this too much?
Speaker 6Well, you know, I think it's really interesting. I just finished um the book Adult Races by Lindy West, and she's the one that um the she written a book called Shrill and Amy Bryant, and it's you know
Body Positivity GLP-1s And Health
Speaker 6a three-season series. It's really interesting. You know, I think we had the you know, body positive movement and then GLPs happened. And then I think when you talk to some people who were big proponents of the body, you know, positivity movement, they've moved back.
Speaker 3Like Lizo, like, you know, is even started to kind of like, you know, before she was like, I'm I'm yeah, she didn't want to come out and say she was on.
Speaker 6Well, not even not even that, but I'm bad and I'm proud now it's like I'm trying to be healthy, right? So I think there's pressure around for everyone, right? And I think it's important to be healthy. I just you know, I don't know exactly where society stands, you know. I I would hope that people could come to the conclusion that there is no one standard of beauty. And we know this that standards of beauty change from country to country based on circumstances. What I think would be nice in the right way forward is if we said there's no one universal, like if we just try to kind of pare down the sample group. In America, there's not one or two standards of beauty, right? And people are starving themselves to get to a point, people are looks maxing, you know, people are taking a mallet to their face, you know, and then also that is apparently beauty, and it's like, what is beautiful? It has to be more than just your physical looks.
Speaker 3We go back to this. We actually found an advice article that asked this question. A mother asked the question. I my son's dating, but I don't think she's attractive. We'll tell you what their advice was, and we'll take that up on the other side. We'll be right back.
Speaker 4Thanks for streaming Wrong Way Forward, the weekly reminder that advice is usually free for a reason. We call out bad advice wherever it hides boardrooms, break rooms, and even book clubs.
Speaker 5Enjoying this dumpster fire, like, subscribe, and check back every Thursday for new episodes. Want us to roast your favorite piece of nonsense? Email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Be sure to include your contact info. We're not psychic, just judgmental. And now back to Wrong Way Forward.
SpeakerRoasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin.
Speaker 3Welcome back to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward, where reader we are discussing one of the age-old questions of time. U G L I U Ugly. It's a kind of a fun episode that really we've been talking about doing for some time because I have a question for you, Justin.
Speaker 6You know, we we no longer have youth on our side. I mean, we are officially middle-aged.
Speaker 7Yes.
Speaker 6And, you know,
Middle Age Invisibility And Dating Hope
Speaker 6being a woman of period Menopause age, you know, I keep reading about how women just don't, they don't feel like they're even singing. And particularly women who used to be considered attractive and now they feel invisible. You know, how has your kind of take on looks and your own looks changed now that you've hit middle-aged?
Speaker 3Um, I really the nice thing is I remember when I um I've got through so many phases. Like, I remember when I was 28, was I think I've talked about this on the show before 28 I'd go into a bar and a 50-year-old walk in. I'm like, what are you doing here? Like, this is a 28-year-old bar and you're 50. And now I when I I never go to bars anymore, but that's chiefly the reason why. But if I get I probably went to one bar last year and I walked in, and I that was all that kept playing in my head is you're 50, what are you doing here? And so, long story short, there was a day in my 40s when I would still go to the bars and I would still be making sure I looked right and all that because now I'm like no one's looking at you, you can look however you want. So it's been very freeing for me.
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean, it's pretty funny because my sister will just be like, you know, we'll get all dressed up and she's like, we just look like a bunch of moms when you have kids.
Speaker 3Well, I mean, the toily.
Speaker 6So I have to tell you, I'm just gonna put on my glasses for those of you who are on YouTube. I bought the sweater, it's a Maria sweater. I got off shop off. It looks so cute. I put it on this morning. I was too lazy to blow out my hair, and I put on my glasses, and I'm like, I look like blue baby gets brown. So I just need to give up being attractive myself.
Speaker 3But that's the problem. Women have very different standards than I mean. I think you guys, it's a lot harder for you. And I don't mean give up on your looks where you stop putting on makeup.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 3You know, I don't do that, but you still put on your makeup? I actually do occasionally. Um but we're gonna wrap up this section. We're gonna talk. This was this was actually what got us on the subject. It was an article in the Washington Post,
Mom Judges Son’s Girlfriend
Speaker 3and the mom writes that my son recently started dating someone who he really likes. He seems happy, she seems kind, but by all accounts, this should be a wonderful thing. When I saw a picture of her, my first thought was, Wow, she's not very attractive. Now I feel awful. And she's basically asking, what does she say to him? Does she tell her son that she's not cute?
Speaker 6Well, and I think she's having such guilt because she thought she was someone who didn't care that much about looks, and she's having the realization. And and I think Carolyn Hacks of the Washington Post says, Don't be so hard on yourself. But she's also realizing that looks mattered, and when she had an ideal version of who her son would date, of course, smart, funny, kind, you know, probably good family, you name it. And probably in that was a certain level of attractiveness.
Speaker 3And you would be totally, you'd be writing the same column. Because would you die if you're if your son or daughter was dating someone not cute?
Speaker 6Really, I don't think I would die. I would really hope that their personality shouldn't differ.
Speaker 3You'd be like, ooh, let's go get laser treatments today.
Speaker 6I just that is so not what I would do.
Speaker 3No.
Speaker 6First of all, I would never in a billion years tell someone to go get laser treatments. Number two, laser treatments if they had maybe pizza face and pits, but you can't, laser treatments don't make you beautiful.
Speaker 3No, I know.
Speaker 6Apologize to me because that was wrong. That's not fundamentally who I am.
Speaker 3Okay, I apologize to you. Yeah. But I think it would be hard to have your children date someone who was not attractive.
Speaker 6Well, I mean, both of my brothers, I think, married very attractive people. And I would if they, and here's the thing: I I think what's interesting about this woman is you would hope, not hope, you envision, and you just think. Nobody thinks like, oh, you know, you know, marry a witch, you know, but you would think, you know, come back with someone attractive.
Speaker 3And I think that's so what would how would you handle it? Would you tell your son she's not cute?
Speaker 6No, I would keep it to myself.
Speaker 3I think what'd your face say with your mouth?
Speaker 6Well, I think here's the thing is that I think also, like you said, attractiveness comes along probably with other traits, right? And if she saw him, a certain level of success, a certain level of access, a certain level of education.
Speaker 3I mean, you know, and and so, but you know and if you saw her treat him really well, she her attractiveness would grow.
Speaker 6100% because I see, yeah, because I do care about kind of the whole picture. I would borrow though, if either of my brothers had brought home an ugly girl, I would I wouldn't be so much bored about what I thought. I would be like, I'm so shocked about them.
Speaker 3All right, well, that's this week's episode
Wrap Up And How To Reach Us
Speaker 3of Wrong Way Forward, where we have taken on the age-old question of you ugly. Join us next week about our handles, Katy.
Speaker 6Okay, um, it is wrongwayforward podcast at gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. You can also find us on Facebook, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Speaker 8You like it, you like it. You love it. You love it! You love it! You love it, you like it.
Speaker 4All right, that's a wrap on this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. Remember, the only thing worse than taking bad advice is giving it.
Speaker 5If you've liked what you've heard, like, subscribe, or follow us wherever you stream podcasts. And if you've got a topic or need some advice, we'll probably regret giving, email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com.
Speaker 4Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Romway Forward.
