24. Can You Be a Feminist and Still Expect Him to Pay?

This week on Wrong Way Forward, Katy and Justin litigate one of the most chaotic first-date questions of all time: should men pay? We react to Scott Galloway’s “always pay” argument, debate the golden rule (whoever invites pays), and unpack what the bill actually signals—initiative, care, cheapness, or just different expectations.

Then we make a hard left into the internet’s newest thirst trap: competency porn—why watching someone be excellent at their job is suddenly hotter than abs. From Suits to Top Chef to Apollo 13-level problem solving, we connect the dots between dating standards, emotional labor, and the universal desire to turn your brain off and trust someone else to handle it.

Drop your take: Should men pay? Should women pay? Should everyone Venmo and call it love?
Email: wrongwayforwardpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript

Setting Up The Debate

Speaker 0:01

She's Katy Montgomery. He's Justin Joseph. These best friends are serving subpoenas to bad advice weekly with Wrong Way Forward. Now here's Katy and Justin.

Katy Montgomery 0:11

Hi, and welcome to Wrong Way Forward. This is the podcast where we um try to give good advice. My name is Katy Montgomery, and I am here with Justin Joseph. And I think today we're going to cover a topic that might be fairly controversial. And Justin, this is about should men pay? Now, I do want to give a caveat. This is not should they pay all the time, but this is particularly at the beginning of a relationship, definitely the first day, and maybe, you know, as the relationship kind of develops, should men pay?

Justin Joseph 0:45

Well, I know how you feel about this, I'm guessing, being from the South. Would you like to let the viewer, any of our new viewers, know what your thoughts are on this?

Katy Montgomery 0:52

Well, I think here's the thing. I think first of all, we should probably play a clip. Okay. Um we have Scott Galloway, um, and some of you might know him. He's a marketing professor at NYU. He's writtenly, recently written a book. He does a podcast with um Kara Swisher, but he's recently written a book, and he's on the you know, kind of podcast, talk, um, you know, radio circuit, and he's getting some viral kind of comments. And let's first listen to what he says, and then I will give my feedback. And and Justin, I'm very interested to hear kind of how you react to Scott Galloway's um thoughts on men should pay.

Speaker 2 1:30

All

Scott Galloway’s Argument

Speaker 2 1:31

right, here's Scott Galloway. Even if they're not economically less well off than the woman, because the bottom line is, and you'd reference this, men get more from relationships than women. And so if you're asking a woman to engage in the possibility of a relationship, and also the downside of sex is much greater for a woman, much greater risk involved in sex, that quite frankly, one way you show that you are willing to level up and recognize the investment in the skewed advantage towards you of entering into a relationship that you, you know, widowers or widows, widows are happy, happier than they were when they were married, widowers are less happy. I mean, there's just a lot of data showing that marriage is better for the man than it is for the woman. So if you're gonna ask a woman to potentially enter into that type of relationship, I think from the get-go, you have an obligation to show you're really committed and serious. And one easy way to do this, and this sounds really crass, and I teach my boys this, you always pay.

Justin Joseph 2:28

All right. Well, that if I would have said that, you would have thrown me off the air as a sexist MF. Um, I'm just surprised that you think this is good advice.

Katy Montgomery 2:38

No,

Katie’s Standard: Who Invites Pays

Katy Montgomery 2:39

I mean, I think it's fantastic advice, and I think the way that I think about it is first of all, who who is doing the asking? And so if someone invites me out, particularly for a you know, a first date, I would expect them to pay. They are hosting me. They took the initiative. So I think not following through makes me see kind of a lack of chivalry. You know, if you don't want, um, you know, if you don't want to pay, um, then let's not go do something that requires, you know, um you know, dollar bills. But I think also my take on this is is not necessarily the economic viewpoint that Scott Galloway has, but I am at an age in life, and I think we know from this podcast that you know, I'm almost 52 and I'm not married, I take care of a lot of stuff. I take care of myself, I take care of my clients, I take care of my family, I take care of my father and mother's estate, I take care of their legacy, you name it on and on and on and on. And for me, it signals if you're not gonna pay, because I to be honest, I don't ask men out, um, is that if you're gonna ask me out on a date and then not pay, I'm like, I need someone who is going to anticipate my needs, who is going to problem solve, who is going to improve my life, who is going to take charge. I've got enough, you know, testosterone and get going in me enough. I need someone who's gonna grab the bull by the horns. And it is very unattractive if you've asked me out on a date and you're not gonna pay.

Justin Joseph 4:11

I I it's so interesting. I hear everything you just said. But what was interesting when you did when you did your soliloquy of what you need, you need someone who takes charge. You didn't say, I need someone to take care of me. Is that an avoidance word for you? Do you not like to say I want someone to take care of me? Do you would you say I want a man to take care of me? Say that.

Katy Montgomery 4:30

Yes, I would. I mean, I can take care of myself clearly.

Justin Joseph 4:35

See, just say it.

Katy Montgomery 4:37

But I would, yes, I would love for a man to take care of me.

Justin Joseph 4:40

And I remember um is it hard to say that?

Katy Montgomery 4:43

I don't know if it's hard because I I'm clearly capable on my own. But if I'm gonna introduce someone into my life and the work and the energy and the compromise, I need to know that I'm not the one carrying a lot of the weight. And I have found, I remember this. I have an English basement. I live in Washington, D.C. And there would sometimes basement English basement is like kind of a separate

Wanting Care Versus Taking Charge

Katy Montgomery 5:10

entrance. You'll see sometimes people rent them out. They might be called like in-law suites.

Justin Joseph 5:14

Um as a realtor, I've never heard it called that before.

Katy Montgomery 5:17

Oh, really? Um, and I had some problems with flooding down there. And I just remember, you know, it was with one of my boyfriends, and I was down there for a long time just cleaning up, and he never came and kind of took the initiative. And I was like, Well, that's done. You know, I just am like, I want you to step up, I want you to get things done. I'd like you to, you know, it doesn't have to be you're a hundred percent responsible for all of the bills and all of the decisions. That would drive me insane. But I need to know that you're taking initiative and doing things. And I think the lack of paying, it also signals to me, particularly on a first date, is I like people who are fiscally, you know, responsible with their money and are, you know, and are good stewards of their money. But I've dated a cheap ass and it is horrible. It is just really limiting in terms of what I want to do, what I find interesting, and where I want to spend my money. And if someone's not gonna pay for dinner for me the first time, it's a real signal. Like this is a cheapskate.

Justin Joseph 6:15

Uh well, let me say I I agree with you on the rule that whomever invites pays. I think that is the golden rule, and so I agree. And and I would say 90% of the time, that is the man. And so if the man invites, it should be the man who pays. Having said that, I think we should also be in a place where a woman, if she wants to invite a man on a date, she should absolutely do that. And and she should offer to pay since I invite you, and I hope the man fights her on that. Um, you know, my my issue with Scott Galloway, and I really do find I remember when I first saw him on the air, it was probably on the Today Show or Morning Joe, some NBC network, many a couple years ago, and he was just getting onto the scene and he was talking about how you know the corrosive of our younger generation, et cetera. And I thought he had a lot of really valuable things to say, but he really has come for men of late.

Katy Montgomery 7:03

Do you think so? Yeah, I think he's a good thing. He's a gay man.

Justin Joseph 7:06

He's a gay man.

Katy Montgomery 7:06

No, he's not.

Justin Joseph 7:08

Is he not? Are you sure?

Katy Montgomery 7:12

Yes, 100. He is married with a wife and I think two children. Um, Kara Swisher, his podcast partner, she's very she's a lesbian. Um, I mean, here's here's the thing. He has a hypothesis that men are lonely, men are underperforming. Um, the reason why we may have particular leaders and certain actions happen is because, you know, men, particularly white men, feel maligned, um, and it's acting out. And I think he's gone full in on this hypothesis, and he's hitting it from every angle. And it's actually fairly clever because he is getting, you know, viral and he's putting something out there as part of his larger hypothesis, which he's got a lot of research. I mean, they are finding that, you know, loneliness and health outcomes, et cetera, among men are much lower than women. Um, but you know, he's thrown this out there and he's getting a lot of attention. But I think there's something to be said about, and again, I think about so many times when a relationship started, and you know, I would do the fake kind of go for my wallet because I didn't want someone to think, you know, but that's

Signals Of Cheapness And Initiative

Katy Montgomery 8:21

the right thing to do. Right. But what I would usually do is by the time it was date three or four, I'd be like, let me get this one, right? But I think again, it's like, where is the chivalry? And I think you can be a feminist, which I very much am and want to be treated well and just and taken care of. Um, and and have someone, particularly if you're a highly competent person, you want someone who has a little bit of take charge and ownership and and not demonstrating that in a first date for some very strong women, uh women I think can be a turnoff.

Justin Joseph 8:57

No, I I totally agree. I mean, I think generally that is the right rule. Um, I just I think it, you know, if we've learned anything on this podcast, is to not take it make a generalization about anything. And I think Galloway does that a lot about um men, right or wrong. And I just think it's some dangerous territory. But I agree. I think that in the end it's whomever the golden rule of dating is whomever invites pays. Josh and I, our first date, I paid. Um I probably invited him out, but the second date, you know, the expectation, and again, we're two men, so it's very different. The expectation was that he was going to pay. He forgot his wallet.

Katy Montgomery 9:29

But if we asked Josh, would he agree that that was the expectation?

Justin Joseph 9:34

Well, I just think in that situation it was because, you know, it's we're two men and I paid the first time, he made a second, and he forgot his wallet. And if you want to see panic on someone's face when the expectation is that you pay and that you don't have your wallet, it was really fun to watch him just panic on a second date that he really was excited about. And I I mean, I assume, I hope, and that he didn't have his wallet and he had to tell me he didn't have his wallet. And so, anyway, that was a good memory, and we laugh about that all the time. But um, you know, it's a little different because we're two men.

Katy Montgomery 10:03

Yeah. I mean, I also have a general rule of thumb in my family where the sibling that makes the most money should always pay. And that's not me. So it's worked out in my favor.

Justin Joseph 10:15

Yeah, I love that rule. Well, on the other side of the break, we're gonna talk about the other side of this. Uh, there's situations where a woman should pay. We'll talk about that that on the other side.

Justin’s Rule And Anecdotes

Justin Joseph 10:22

We're also gonna be talking about competency porn. It was a new term to me. We'll explain what that means when we get back on the other side. We'll be right back.

Katy Montgomery 10:29

You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward, where bad advice goes to die and then gets resurrected just so we can roast it again.

Justin Joseph 10:37

If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and subscribe and come back every Thursday for new episodes.

Katy Montgomery 10:41

Have a new topic or some disastrously bad advice you want to dissect, email wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Include your contact info.

Speaker 10:51

Now back to Wrong Way Forward. Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin podcast.

Katy Montgomery 10:57

So we're back, and we are talking about should men pay, particularly on the first date. Um, and so it was interesting when Justin brought this to me and kind of Scott Galloway's comments on men should always pay. I had just seen an article in a Vogue, and the title was The Girl Who Wouldn't Split the Bill. And it's really funny when you read this article, this woman met someone, and it was actually a brother of someone she'd been on a date, and he goes, Oh, yeah, you're the one who won't who expects men to pay and you won't pay. And she goes into this diatribe of why she doesn't pay. And I thought there were a few things that she said is, you know, first of all, is it's going back to who invited whom, which is important. But going back to this idea of, you know, being a feminist, and I think number one, there is a massive wage gap still in not just America, but in the world between men and women. And I think going back to a feminine being a feminist is the idea is that it's your choice. We have fought for you to have choices. Oh, okay. And we fight for you to have your individual choice. And I remember talking to a friend, and I would say 95%

Break And Listener CTA

Katy Montgomery 12:05

of my friends work full-time. And this is a friend who has decided to, you know, had a very accomplished career, very educated, and had stepped away once she had had children for a while. And she was constantly just at odds about it. And I said, This is why we march on Washington. You know, this is why we are feminists. And so that you have the choice and that people respect that you have done what is best for

Vogue Article And Feminism Lens

Katy Montgomery 12:29

you, your family, and your children.

Justin Joseph 12:30

How did that manifest itself that she was constantly this is interesting to me because I see this a lot in my own friends who decide to do that? What how did that manifest itself?

Katy Montgomery 12:39

I mean, I think it's being in the minority. You know, when you look around for, you know, your friends, um, I think when you have a graduate professional degree, there's somewhat of an expectation that you will, you know, the time and energy and the sweat equity you've put into that that you will that will, you know, follow through.

Justin Joseph 12:55

Um, and I think But was she like uncomfortable around people who who were in the work? Could you see her was she talking about her children all the time? Like what did she do that made you, did you that you felt that you felt like she was just talking about it.

Katy Montgomery 13:06

I think it was, you know, feeling though she wasn't in the majority, right? It was feeling though she was, you know, um one of very few, and everyone else was, you know, continuing to kind of work full-time. And I just kept saying it's about the choice. And I think it really drives me crazy when somebody says, Oh, well, you know, you're a woman and you want the man to pay, you're not a feminist. And I thought this article about the girl who wouldn't split the bill, she's like, This is my choice, you know, this is a decision I get to make and it should be respected. And I think they're two separate things. So I thought that was really um interesting. I also think, kind of going back to Justin, you saying, like, I want to be taken care of, you know, I wrote down a few things that I just thought. I want someone to anticipate my needs, problem solve, make decisions. I want to be able to turn my brain off. Sometimes I want to stop thinking, anticipating, um, you know, playing devil's advocate. And I want to be able to trust his judgment. And I think paying that for that first time for me signals those things.

Justin Joseph 14:12

Do you have friends who feel differently? Do you have feminists for, and I guess they don't have to be feminists, but do you have friends who who feel differently?

Katy Montgomery 14:20

My guess would be most of my friends would align on this. Um, it'll be really interesting, yeah, when the episode comes out, um what people think about that. Um and I I'm a very generous person in paying and treating, but I think again, you know, establishing right out of the gate that kind of first thing, which I think leads very nicely into what you were talking about competence porn. You know, let me tell you what the new turn-on is. I mean, the new turn-on is like if you are highly proficient at something and you do it well and you do it right, and I don't have to think about a thing, I trust you immensely. Oh my God, hot and heavy.

Justin Joseph 15:02

So competency porn is a term that I think is relatively new on the sort of the landscape. But you know, there was a day in when we would watch things because we wanted to see people self-destructing because it made us feel better about ourselves. And they're saying there's been a transition with how uneasy the world is that people now like to watch people who are exceptionally good at what they do. And so some examples of the old days where we watched and shows that were um successful, for example, were things like The Bear, while the characters are talented, there's still a ton of mistakes they make. Succession, which is just literally a dumpster fire of a family. Um Better Call Saul, I did watch that, but again, really smart guy, but it was just he's he was self-destructive, etc. So the transition they say is that people are now watching shows that it's more about how together people are, like suits. Have you did you watch Suits?

Katy Montgomery 15:54

I watched some of it. I thought a good example was this because I normally would not watch this movie because I do not care for this actor. But I was on an airplane and I watched Top Gun Maverick. And I think I think Tom Cruise as an individual is fairly incompetent. I mean, the stuff that he does, what's that religion?

Justin Joseph 16:15

It's not even a religion that they're science, Scientology, yeah.

Katy Montgomery 16:19

Scientology

Choice, Wage Gaps, And Care

Katy Montgomery 16:20

is like weird science. Yeah, it is exactly. Um, but his stuff with Scientology and how crazy he is in his relationships and the fact that he, you know, berates Brooke Shields for having postpartum depression and the fact that he doesn't believe in medicine and vaccines. I think he's a fairly incompetent.

Justin Joseph 16:38

And that he has no contact with his daughter Siri, which is just so weird to me.

Katy Montgomery 16:41

It's all of it's weird. But and when I watched, you know, Top Gun Maverick, you know, I was like, damn straight, they called in somebody from, you know, I'm gonna sound horrible because I'm very much a global citizen, but of course they called in someone from America to get around that mountain thing and do whatever they needed to do. Yes, they're gonna problem solve. I love the idea. When I looked at an article about Combat Sea porn, like I had just watched Apollo 13. I love the concept of the Martian, right? You know, um, Matt Damon is stranded and he's so smart, he starts to grow potatoes. Like, I love that. I love his like step up, um, you know, money ball, um, spotlight.

Justin Joseph 17:24

You know, for me, it's like top chef is just people at the top of their game generally. I mean, any cooking show, I think, is is a good example of competency born.

Katy Montgomery 17:32

That is interesting, Justin, because I've watched a lot of cooking shows, and there's a lot of disasters.

Justin Joseph 17:41

Well, there are, but top chef is not one of them. It's people who are operating at the top level of their game. And uh no, I watch, I literally watch any competition cooking show there is, you name it. I've watched it, I've watched, I just watched the Renovators, an Australian show from the 80s, and there's 65 episodes, and I it's been heaven for me just because I get it, it's just something mindless I could turn on and just this, plus the statins and the blood pressure medicine and the fact you never want to go anywhere.

Katy Montgomery 18:08

I just finished the book called The Correspondent, and I'm like,

Enter Competency Porn

Katy Montgomery 18:12

you remind me of Sybil, the main character.

Justin Joseph 18:14

Well, that Sibyl may that that that tracks to some degree. Why, why, what I'm confused where the through line is on all of these things.

Katy Montgomery 18:21

Yeah, it's just Sybil kind of like stays at home and her life's kind of simple and she's kind of old.

Justin Joseph 18:29

Yeah, and I have two dogs. I'm like now a cat lady basically with two dogs. I mean, my life is just I mean, it's I I was thinking this morning with the two of them running around that I'm like, I live in a farm. I just live in an effing farm. You can never come visit again. You would die.

Katy Montgomery 18:43

I can never come visit again.

Justin Joseph 18:44

And also, Josh, I talked that we talked about if Katy comes out, we're gonna have to get her a hotel because she cannot stay here.

Katy Montgomery 18:51

Well, the thing about it too is I want to be fair to you, I'm pretty old myself. I hurt my back on Sunday doing absolutely nothing but literally rising up from the couch, and I'm in a separate room filming this, and I'm like, I really wish I had my heating pad.

Justin Joseph 19:08

And the sweater looks a little doily-ish to me.

Katy Montgomery 19:11

Jeffton, this is called Fair Isle. This is an Alex Meal sweater.

Justin Joseph 19:15

Well, again, this just tracks with the statin. I'm old, I don't know these things.

Katy Montgomery 19:21

Um, you know, people at home, I do not wear a doily. That sounds like I'm like Ruth Baider Ginsburg.

Justin Joseph 19:27

That's a good plug for our YouTube channel, youtubechannel.com forward podcasts. You can actually see what she's wearing. Um, on that note, back to the I'm just so excited. Both the girls are getting going to their beauty appointments this afternoon, and I get to clean the house, which I just am ecstatic about to have no one in the house that I can just clean.

Katy Montgomery 19:43

There you go. And well, on that note, let's take a break, and then maybe you can think about how you're not 80 and come back as the true 52-year-old you are, and we'll take some viewer um emails.

Justin Joseph 19:55

Thanks for streaming Wrong Way Forward, the weekly reminder that advice is usually free for a reason. We call out bad advice wherever it hides boardrooms, break rooms, and even book clubs.

Katy Montgomery 20:06

Enjoying this dumpster fire, like, subscribe, and check back every Thursday for new episodes. Want us to roast your favorite piece of nonsense? Email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Be sure to

Examples Of Mastery On Screen

Katy Montgomery 20:20

include your contact info. We're not psychic, just judgmental. And now back to Wrong Way Forward.

Speaker 20:25

Roasting the worst advice ever.

Justin Joseph 20:27

Welcome back to the Katy and Justin. Welcome back. So this week we have had two interesting topics should men pay as well as competency porn. The through line we've decided is that what was the through line? How did we make that turn?

Katy Montgomery 20:39

The through line was that I mean, I think the through through line is that we want, we are old and we want people who come in, take care of stuff, get it done, and don't require us any extra energy to think. We just like, come on, come in and do it.

Justin Joseph 20:56

I agree. And what's interesting, just to follow up and kind of put a final bow on that, is you know, Josh, Josh and I could not be more different people, but you know, Josh would not come down and fix the basement or with the English basement flooding problem. That would be something I would deal with. But he does goes above and beyond to do his half of whatever that means.

Katy Montgomery 21:13

It's that is that is actually correct. Like your landscaping and yard is beautiful, and that's 100% Josh.

Justin Joseph 21:19

That's 100% Josh, and he he makes up for things that I don't do. I mean, it's it's it's a good partnership, and that's why it's worked, even though we could not be more different people on that. I'm insane and now officially old per daddy. All right, on that note, let's take a couple of your emails. Um, let's see. I think I've been living someone else's life. Well, let's first by start by saying don't forget to um you can email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. You can also uh join the conversation on our text line at 7204251 4450. Again, 720 251 4450. We want to know if you are a big proponent that um men should pay or if you believe that whomever asks should pay, or that you think it should be a woman should pay if you are. A woman. We certainly want to know that as well. So join the conversation whenever you're ready. A couple of your emails before we tag out this week. This one, um, I think I've been living someone else's life. Justin and Katy, I didn't expect to cry during a podcast about bet of ice, but here we are. You were joking about living the wrong life with really well, and it hit me harder than I'd like to admit. I'm 39, married, two kids, good job, blah, blah, blah. And yet I feel optimized for applause instead of happiness. I picked my career because it sounded impressive at Thanksgiving. I bought the house because it's what you do next. I'm not miserable. That's just the problem. I'm fine. And it's just talking about basically that how do

Light Banter And Aging Jokes

Justin Joseph 22:35

you know when it's a crisis versus a calling? Um, this is it, it's interesting. This is, I guess, in response to when we talked about building a life. Or I'm not sure which episode this talks about, but anyway, that's one viewer email. We also got some that says, um, let's see here, brutal honesty ruined my engagement. How do you two after your reputation? I realized that I weaponized just being honest in my relationship. My fiance asked if I liked the ring he picked. Interesting. And I said, quote, that's not what I would have chosen. Oh, that's a good one. How do you handle that conversation, Katy?

Katy Montgomery 23:04

Well, I think it's interesting. And I think next week is when we really deep dive into brutal honesty. I think. Um, I'm not absolutely positive. Um, Justin and I are not great with keeping all of our episodes straight. Is that our author? Um, no, I think next week we're gonna film the author, but we're gonna air the Brutal Honesty one where we did a deeper dive. Um, first of all, I want to say to this man, you're incompetent. What kind of idiot buys a ring without doing some pre-shopping, some let's walk through. Like, don't buy your ring at Tiffany. It's gonna be way overpriced because it's Tiffany, but go do the walk through Tiffany, you know. Go and, you know, go see some, you know. I think that's absolutely asinine that somebody made such a big and fundamental purchase that someone wears every day and didn't get any sense of what this person liked or wanted.

Justin Joseph 23:56

Yeah, interesting. Well, I think the brutally honesty conversation we had in the recent weeks was a really interesting and good conversation, um, just because everybody is going to view that differently. But again, thank you guys for joining us this week. Um, again, join the conversation 720-251-4450 or wrongwayforward at gmail.com, wrongwayforward podcast at gmail.com. So thanks for watching. We'll see you guys next week on Wrongway Forward. All right, that's a wrap on this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. Remember, the only thing worse than taking bad advice is giving it.

Katy Montgomery 24:26

If you've liked what you've heard, like, subscribe, or follow us wherever you stream podcasts. And if you've got a topic or need some advice,

Tying Themes Together

Katy Montgomery 24:34

we'll probably regret giving. Email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com.

Justin Joseph 24:40

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward.